I know some of you won’t like this but I was thinking recently if there weren’t some advantages of more socialist countries that we tend to ignore here. From what I understand, people in Britain and France do not nearly have the standard of living we do–they have less toys and money and big cars and so forth. But at the same time, they don’t have to worry as much. They get more time off, its harder to get fired (too hard in France in my opinion) they don’t have to worry about getting sick as much because of socialized health care. In France at least, the health care is supposedly much better than here, but its bankrupting their government. Of course, we are too because of the war, bailouts and general runaway spending and we don’t even have socialized medicine. But in any case, their worries and stresses are less, they have greater individual financial security at the cost of a lower economic success.
I’m not saying its better–just different. I’m not claiming we should or could do that here in America. We have more stress and have to work harder here, but we have far more opportunity and wealth. Do you think its possible that what conservatives and liberals are fighting over is really just two different approaches to life and government, both with pros and cons? Maybe one is not entirely “better” than the other, but both involve trade-offs.
I’m not picking a fight with anyone, just more thinking out loud. Maybe my outspoken conservative friends Brady or Brett will comment. 
Also to be fair, liberals should keep this in mind that maybe what conservatives want is not to have the country run by greedy corporations but a different set of advantages that involves more hard work, less security but greater rewards.
Just some thoughts…
Craig is an agnostic, skeptic and political moderate. He is a practitioner of zen meditation and has respect and interest in many religions, but not a subscriber to any of them. 
Hi Craig – I’m on my way out the door and may come back and comment on this again if I remember, but your thoughts reminded me of a couple of op-eds I’d recently read. This is a subject I’ve thought alot about and I think you have a very valid point. Americans are kind of conditioned to automaticaly assume that we are the best, have the best, etc….which is true in some cases but clearly not in others.
You may find these two short articles interesting, especially the one titles “French Family Values”.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/11/opinion/11krugman.html... See More
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/29/opinion/29krugman.html
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I don… See More’t know if it’s European vs. American or conservative vs. liberal, or if it doesn’t fit into any particular dichotomy, but I think we’re talking about a difference in value systems here; different ways of measuring success. For example, should the merit of an economic system be judged by how many multi-millionaires it produces or by how much of the population lives above the poverty level? Should success be based on how big our house is, how many plasma screen tvs we own, or how much personal freedom we have? It comes down to how we define quality of life. We have a lot of material wealth but it’s not clear that that translates to happiness. (I would argue strongly that it doesn’t but that’s not what your post is about.)
In my opinion to really have a discussion about the advantages/disadvantages of a European vs. American style economy we’d first have to agree on a definition of success, and that may not necessarily be a conservative vs. liberal kind of argument although we could certainly turn it into one. If the metric is individual material wealth and personal consumption, America probably has the upper hand. If we use a broader definition of quality of life, such as leisure time to spend with family and friends, overall stress level and sense of well-being, I think a case could be made for the Europeans.
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it… See More’s important to note that France is not a socialist country. In fact America’s economic system is modeled on laissez-faire capitalism which originated in France. Both America and France, and for that matter most all of Europe, have mixed economic systems with elements of socialism and capitalism.
There is a very poignant difference between France and America that probably accounts for why we are supposed to hate them so much; namely their attitude towards their government, CEOs, and other elites. Americans tend to feel powerless and generally are afraid of those in power (fear of losing job, my vote doesn’t matter, what can I do about it anyway, etc.) In France it’s the other way around. When they want to affect social change or improve working conditions they tend to take to the streets in large numbers and riot when necessary. Sadly, we just don’t seem to have that kind of solidarity here.
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Hey Craig – thanks for posting that. I enjoy following your political discussions here since you all stick to facts and ideas more than personal attacks. I have trouble watching Fox or MSNBC for that reason (except I do watch Morning Joe on MSNBC).
I think what you mention seems pretty accurate, but I wanted to share a few thoughts.
I wrote a bit of this before all of Ben’s replies so in some ways I’m saying the same thing he is. When I lived in England for 6 months, it was long enough to change how I viewed our own country. When I got back to the U.S. I was shocked by how much the people (at least the ones around me) talked about the things they own: the toys, the house with in-ground pool, etc. I vowed to not do that myself (although I’ve slipped quite a bit from then). I fully support each individual’s right to work as hard as they want towards their goals and to see the rewards of that (the Ayn Rand capitalist in me). But I think we tend to have too much ‘keeping up with the joneses’ syndrome that it starts to get counter-productive.
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One other thought – I work for a tech-company headquartered in England so while I realize that’s not ’statistically relevant’ it seems that at least some companies innovate and do fine from Europe. I like Paul Krugman’s op-ed that Ben posted as it seems to have some of the statistics that I kindof ‘felt’ to be true.
It’s unfortunate that the name-calling on both political sides prevents real discussion of ideas and understanding where people are coming from. Politics is off-limits discussion when visiting my parents and extended family as it just causes arguments and hurt feelings – neither side is actually willing to talk and understand the other side. They seem to think “If you don’t agree with me – you must be stupid”. I guess I don’t really have a point, just a few small observations.
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Ben and Mike, good observations both. That is my feeling as well, but at the same time I empathize with my conservative friends who appreciate more of America’s rugged, do-it-yourself individualism.
I will comment on one thing Ben. I think France is fairly socialistic, although you’re right that its not pure socialism just as we’re not pure … See Morecapitalist. There are some downsides to this to play devils’ advocate for conservatives. My acquaintance who was the one who mentioned that the health system was much better in France, said that the people are very negative there. They are always bitching about something. So I don’t know if they are actually happier or it was just his perception that they weren’t. He also was the one mentioned that the cost of the healthcare as good as it was, put the government in huge debt. Granted he is only one guy but he spelled out pretty well both the pros and cons of their system and culture. Also, as I alluded to it is nearly impossible to get fired in france, because of government regulation. On the surface this sounds great, but the problem is that companies are slow to hire anyone because they can’t get rid of people who just wont do their job, which raises unemployment and stifles entrepeneurship. England I believe is a bit different as Mike mentioned. I feel france in some areas has gone to far to the left.
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