I heard this when I was 20 and I still think it fits today:
”The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply find unbelievable.”
I know Christians who are doing this right now. Sad really. Take this (fictional) story as an example of truth in this statement. You know people like this don’t you?
A man was being tailgated by a stressed out woman on a busy boulevard. Suddenly, the light turned yellow, just in front of him. He did the right thing, stopping at the crosswalk, even though he could have beaten the red light by accelerating through the intersection.
The tailgating woman was furious and honked her horn, screaming in frustration, as she missed her chance to get through the intersection, dropping her cell phone and makeup.
As she was still in mid-rant, she heard a tap on her window and looked up into the face of a very serious police officer. The officer ordered her to exit her car with her hands up.
He took her to the police station where she was searched, fingerprinted, photographed, and placed in a holding cell. After a couple of hours, a policeman approached the cell and opened the door. She was escorted back to the booking desk where the arresting officer was waiting with her personal effects.
He said, ‘I’m very sorry for this mistake. You see, I pulled up behind your car while you were blowing your horn, flipping off the guy in front of you, and cussing a blue streak at him.’ I noticed the ‘What Would Jesus Do’ bumper sticker, the ‘Choose Life’ license plate holder, the ‘Follow Me to Sunday-School’ bumper sticker, and the chrome-plated Christian fish emblem on the trunk; naturally…I assumed you had stolen the car.’
It is. Thanks for that. We all need to be reminded not to deny Him.
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While I agree that hypocrisy doesn’t advance the cause, I would offer that the number one reason for atheism is all the horrible things that happen to innocent people. Natural disasters like the Haiti earthquake and the Indonesian tsunami have killed over 500,000 people and left millions miserable. Why would God let that happen? I am sure many … See Moreof those people were God loving, good deed performing, humans. Then you add in the man made atrocities like the holocaust, and I’m sure that people start to wonder…why does an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful, God allow this to happen?
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some people would say god didn’t let it happen, rather that he “made it happen” to punish people. Although, I don’t believe that. I also don’t believe God is going to sit around and make our life here on earth some kind of Utopia and avert every possible thing that could bring us sadness, pain, etc. After all, without pain and sadness, things like pleasure and happiness couldn’t exist. Sort of like hot without cold, light without dark, etc. it is all logical.
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I know my own slide towards agnosticism did not occur because of the hypocrisy of the church or the suffering of human beings (although neither helped the situation much.) Rather, I began to see that the bible was not infallible, and that it portrayed a rather flawed, vengeful and immoral deity. Also, I began to realize that the absolute truths I … See Morewas looking for did not exist because of these flaws, as well as different denominations interpretation of it in regards to salvation, the rights of women, sin, etc.
Still, I am coming to appreciate what christianity did for me growing up, and the good things it contributes to western culture.
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The doctrine of depravity (original sin) explains why the earth is filled with evil and all kinds of atrocities from both natural and human sources.
I like what David said about hot without cold and light without dark. Without the knowledge of our sin we could not understand our need for God.
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Those same people that complain about “God allowing earthquakes” would use the same argument if there were no natural disasters. Eventually they’d say “why does God allow there to be poor people” or “why does God allow people to die” or “Why does God allow people to be mean to each other”… And if you keep taking those things away eventually … See Morethose people would be down to “THere can’t be a God, because he wouldn’t allow people to have hangnails” So whatever the worst thing is that exists, would be the extreme bad in this world.
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David,
I agree with the idea that there can’t be light without dark, cold without hot, etc. The discrepancy comes from the problem of a perfect God (as we understand Him) in an imperfect world. Is this as some theologians put it, “the best of all possible worlds?” where both free will and God’s will can coexist? Could God not do better yet still provide freewill?
True some people would complain that there can’t be a God even if the worst suffering was no more than a hangnail. But that begs the question of why we don’t live in a completely perfect world already? Why would a completely good and loving God allow any suffering or evil at all? Why is freewill necessary? Also, even if freewill and some degree of suffering is necessary, how can God allow the degree to which many people suffer, such as torture, famine and plague? … See More
The idea of original sin similarly brought up more questions for me than it answered. If Adam and Eve sinned, why did God allow their descendants to inherit that? Why did he punish all their descendants for their parents’ sin? (This concept is in other places in the bible as well.) Why did the animals have to suffer? Why would one sin cause natural disasters and such? If everyone has freewill, what happens to unborn and children who die young? Do they get free will? Then you have the concept of the afterlife. Why would God (according to many Christians) allow this calamity, which not only causes untold suffering to human and animal life on earth, but also cause the vast majority of humans to burn in Hell after death (wide is the road to destruction.) They only inherited this sinful nature from the first parents which was beyond their control.
I was never able to find satisfactory answers to these type of questions. They are generally glossed over by mainstream Christians, and among theologians they have been debated over for centuries. I think no matter what religion you believe in the problem of evil will always be a problem and mystery. So my tendency is to assume that
A) There is no God(s) at all (atheism), or
B) There is a God, but he has chosen to remain mysterious and does not directly/physically intervene at all, although He may give us spiritual strength (deism.)
In either case, all religions are to some extent wrong or at least only symbolic.
Now I realize this will all come across as offensive to many christians, and my friend Brett will say I’m unfairly picking on Christianity. The fact is that Christianity is the religion i know best and what most people on here talk about, so I probably argue about it more. But there are philosophical problems with every religion. I don’t fully buy into pantheism, reincarnation, karma, Allah, polytheism or a host of other beliefs either. I think they all have merits and flaws, some more than others.
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Craig – My biggest problem with Christianity (lately anyway) has been cafeteria Christians.
It bugs me to no end to see people take just the pieces they like and follow them, then throw out the rest. Either the whole thing is real, and you believe it, or the whole thing is a lie.
In fact, I believe there is a verse in the Bible which says something along those lines, but I don’t have time to look it up…. See More
Now if you want to really get into a debate. The Bible even says the earth is flat and does not move from its location. We know for a fact those are wrong. How do you reconcile that? Is it a poem, or is it word for word accurate? I love arguing that with fundamentalists.
I’ll tell you what I believe (from a Christian standpoint) but I want to hear your thoughts first.
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Well I think you hit the nail on the head. You can’t really be a fundamentalist christian and be intellectually honest. Its too easy to lookup the logical and moral failings of the Bible. Of course to many of those people, being logical or not self-contradictory may not be important–its all faith, and the wisdom of men is foolishness to God. Of course, at that point is really hard to have a meaningful conversation or debate about whats true or not, since anything can be believed on pure faith alone if it doesn’t have to measure up to any human standards of morality, evidence or reason.
The only alternative is to some degree be a cafeteria christian, picking out the parts that are blatantly proven wrong or immoral, yet still believing in things like Christ is your savior, the love of God, human tendency to sin, etc. that noone can really prove scientifically true or false. The rest then becomes symbolic such as heavens golden streets or hell’s flames, or simply a cultural discrepancy of a bygone era, such as women not being allowed to speak out in church. I would argue that this is what most Catholics fall into, and many, if not the majority, of Protestants as well. Its simply NOT necessary to be a fundamentalist or biblical inerrantist and be a Christian, IMHO.
I read something recently thats helped me. Karen Armstrong says that we should not confuse “mythos” and “logos.” Mythos which gives meaning and hope to people but isn’t supposed to be believed literally, and Logos, which is physical and scientific truth. This is in many ways the stance of Zen and other forms of Eastern Mysticism–all the stories are true, but only in a sense. Zen says the words are like a finger pointing at the moon. Don’t just look at the finger, look at the moon! The real truth of “God” and the universe is too big for us to conceptualize or prove. The ancient Hebrews did not even use the name of their God for fear of idolatry, and ancient hindu yogis would similarly find more truth in silence than the names for all the different aspects of Brahman (God.) … See More
I think as human beings we’re all after the same thing: truth, love, morality, redemption, peace, meaning, but we differ on how we get their based upon our culture, personal experiences and how literally we take the traditions we’ve been taught.
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I find this helpful with concepts like the Christian Trinity. If you believe in the trinity literally, its a problem. How can God be both One and Three? If God can be three, why not ten or ten thousand? This is similar to Hinduism BTW, where some traditions say all the other gods are merely a manifestation of Brahman.
But what if you take … See Morethe trinity more symbolic? Then its not so much of a problem. You have God the father, which is transcendent, all powerful and separate from his creation. You have God the Son, in which the will of the father was incarnate (again literally or figuratively) in Jesus the Christ in a unique way and in which we learn to likewise become sons of God. Then you have the holy spirit, God is immanent and present in the souls of all Christians, or perhaps all human beings to a lesser or greater degree. its one God, but experienced and conceptualized three different ways. It doesn’t HAVE TO limit God to only being understood in those three ways, but it helps people with their understanding of how we can talk about God in Christianity or how the early Christians understood Him.
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Craig, at times I’m willing to entertain the idea that God distances himself from the creation and takes a “watch and see approach” But I cannot entertain the idea of there being no God at all. I spent years of my life analyzing that question and learning more and more about the universe and the very nature of life itself and it only reinforces … See Moreto me that there was some greater intelligence behind it all. Even Carl Sagan (who is often believed to be Atheist, although he was actually agnostic) said something to the effect that the laws of the universe (things like strong force, gravity, electromagnetism, etc..) Seem to be enforced by something but no physicist can seem to explain it, and that itself tends to suggest some kind of God.
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I don’t think Mike is talking about The Trinity. It’s the holier than thou assholes that cause a seeker to lose interest…
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Linda, no we kind of got off on a tangent…
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So Mike I still want to hear your perspective…
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I have really enjoyed this thread and what you have all had to say. More importantly, the respect that you have kept throughout the discussion.
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